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The Somewhat Litvshe Yid

Wednesday, June 22, 2005

Da'as Torah...shocking

It seems Reb Chaim wasn't a big fan of Da'as Torah either. He had a great mashal...
Da'as Torah is like electricity. Before electricity people used kerosene to light their houses. When one person ran out, he went to his neighbor or the Beis HaMedrash and kept learning. Now with electricity, if there's a power outage, no one has any.
That is to say, when every one had their own Rav and a mistake was made, then it only effected a few people, but with Da'as Torah, one mistake and everyone's in the dark.


  • What if Da'as Torah,IS the mistake that put everyone in the dark?

    By Blogger AMSHINOVER, at Wednesday, June 22, 2005 10:29:00 PM  

  • Well, if you look at WWII Hungary, it's the thing that put everyone in the gas chambers.

    By Blogger Kin, at Wednesday, June 22, 2005 10:41:00 PM  


    By Blogger thekvetcher, at Thursday, June 23, 2005 3:56:00 AM  

  • Sure. If I understand correctly, Hungary was pretty much untouched by the Holocaust until late in the war. The Munkatcher Rebbe said that this was because there was no serious Zionist movement and that there wouldn't be any problems there. This is while millions of Jews are being killed all over Europe. He told people not to leave (I'm not sure if the Satmar Rov also did, so I won't include him, though a friend of mine's father is from Satmar and spent time in the camps to this day despises the Satmar Rov for being smuggled out and leaving the rest of the Jews to die)and that was the Torah position. They didn't and the vast majority of Hungarian Jewery was slaughtered.

    To some extent the same thing can be said about R' Chaim Ozer, since he also told people, who had the opportunity to move to America in 1939, not to go.

    Please, don't get me wrong. While I strongly disagree with both positions, and pretty much everything else the Munkatcher said, they were still great talmidei chachamim and Tzadikim, certainly R' Chaim Ozer was the Gadol HaDor. That said, they were wrong and people died because of it.

    This is somewhat of a simplification, but there is a good deal of blame to be dropped at the doorstep of Da'as Torah.

    By Blogger Kin, at Thursday, June 23, 2005 7:55:00 AM  

  • I hope the frumteens mod isn't lurking, or he'd put kin into Cherem.

    By Blogger Jameel @ The Muqata, at Thursday, June 23, 2005 1:26:00 PM  

  • Dude,

    Your blog is rockin.


    By Blogger Dr. Doomshtein, at Thursday, June 23, 2005 3:44:00 PM  

  • Yeah...it's lookin' that way.

    By Blogger Litvshe, at Thursday, June 23, 2005 9:53:00 PM  

  • kin, we are just mere cogs in a bigger machine. dont you think that if the abershter wanted us out there would have been a mass exodus and less jews dead. i'm the last person to defend stupidity but some times i think there is a higher power ruling the cosmos. as per other issues of DT i wouldnt ask just any talmid chucham day to day kashas they live in the clouds what do they know. as per the satmar rebbe he was one of the last of his kind. and im sure he carried with him till his last day the guilt of not sending us out.its a good topic for discussion btw i heard that from several survivors.

    By Blogger thekvetcher, at Friday, June 24, 2005 3:27:00 AM  

  • see the following old post on my website about these exact issues:


    By Blogger Rachack, at Sunday, June 26, 2005 8:32:00 AM  

  • With all due respect Rachack...using the Jews Against Zionism site as sources is pretty shvach. They try to explain how the Avnei Nezer didn't really mean what he said when he said the Oaths don't matter any more.
    And the Rambam? Come one...please. Go through the 6th perek in Hilchos Melachim. It's a mitzvah to live in Eretz Yisrael, period.
    The fact is that Zionism was a machlokes. There were g'dolei g'dolim on both sides of the topic. That said...most of them argued before the holocaust and the inception of the state. Once the state was founded, the majority of g'dolim accepted it and saw in it the hand of G-d.

    That said...
    You said in your post:
    " Before Rav Kook wrote his papers defending Zionism, he was already a Zionist. He knew his answer before the question was asked and all he did was try to prove it from there. That's not the Torah way, the Torah way is to first learn/absorb/research all the relevant details and then come to a conclusion."

    Between us...that's nonsense. Like any other Gadol B'Torah, he came to the conclusion through his Esek B'Torah. That he came to the conclusion before he published something about it? So? If you look at most Shuttim, you get the same feeling. Do you think the Satmar Rov wasn't an Anti-Zionist before he wrote V'Yoel Moshe? You don't think he had a firm idea of what he wanted to write and then went about trying to prove it? Please. A bit of intellectual honesty.

    By Blogger Litvshe, at Sunday, June 26, 2005 12:49:00 PM  

  • Kin,
    The Minchas Eluzer - passed away in 1937 and could not have asked Hungarian jews to stay. His son in law - of Polish origin, who was deported in 1940 and very well aware of the fate of Polish Jewry - begged everyone to flee.
    So your basic facts are wrong!

    By Blogger Sofposuk, at Monday, June 19, 2006 6:00:00 AM  

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